As such, I am of two minds when dealing with a figure like David Yerushalmi. I sympathize with a desire to preserve secular values, and I further believe that secular governance is the only fair system of governance anywhere. Even in a country that professes to be 100% Muslim would I oppose the shari'a as the sole legal system or as a competing legal system. First, it's simply impossibly that any country could ever be completely Muslim. What if just one person were to become an apostate? Would that person's head be sawed off in accordance with the shari'a? Undoubtedly. So we must give people the option of leaving Islam if they so choose. If we're so convinced that Islam is the truth, this should be plain for all to see. They should seek to come to Islam by their own free will, not because they have been extorted and otherwise intimidated.
Muhammad (sallahu aleyhi wa sellam) is quoted as saying in Sahih al-Bukhari by 'Ikrima , "Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
This hadith is narrated in what is one of the most authoritative texts in all of Islam. I reject it, as I reject all forms of barbarism enacted in the name of God in the modern era. Islam is far from alone in its death penalty for apostates, the difference is that only Islam practices that TODAY. Consider the Bible and Moses with regard to his treatment of the apostates who worshiped the golden calf.
And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day. Exodus 32:25-29
Or St. Stephen, who was martyred according to the King James Version of the Bible for "blasphemous words against Moses and God" Acts 6:11
Obviously, Jewish law once had a death penalty for apostates. When is the last time this was actually enforced? Quite some time ago. Somewhere between now and then, Jews and their Christian heirs made a decision to stop executing apostates. Such executions were still ongoing among Christians not but a few hundred years ago, so how is it that Christians and Jews have managed to shed this business but Muslims still have those among them who hound for it?
Secularism. That's the sole difference between the two. It is for this reason that I argue that the difference between Islam, Christianity, and Judaism is not their texts... because they aren't different in that respect, but they are different in their modern approach to secularism. It is secularism that has essentially neutered the worst portions of extant religious law for these faiths. There is a problem today with Islam that needs to be addressed by Muslims with a mind to rejection of medieval penalties.
So that, in a nutshell, represents some of the core problems with the shari'a as a legal code. It will be enforced on Muslims and non-Muslims alike with potentially damaging effects. In this respect, I sympathize with Mr. Yerushalmi's work. However, I feel that focus on Islam as the sole source of religious indoctrination and attempts to subvert secular governance is misguided. Further, there is absolutely no danger of the shari'a being implemented in any fashion that leads to severed limbs, stoning, and other more graphic atrocity in America. It's ludicrous, we represent 1% of the population, even if we wanted to do this how would we manage to do so? With what political clout? Keith Ellison?
So in the end, it amounts to conspiracy theory. Shari'a as a legal system is an extremely pressing matter in places like Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan (where the United States supported a shari'a enshrined constitution!), and other Muslim majority states. America is not today and not even in 100 years in danger of achieving an Islamic majority or even a sizable Muslim MINORITY. It's a bit similar to fears during the French Revolution about "Jewish France". Conspiracy theory concerning an Islamic global take over is hardly different from very old anti-Semitism.
I'll close with a video I watched some time ago featuring Mr. Yerushalmi discussing the differences between halacha and shari'a. It's interesting to see, because there's certainly a strong comparison between the two. He makes an excellent point that Jews are not interested in enforcing halacha on gentiles, and that's a key difference. Is it as big of an issue as he's trying to make it?
Hi Muslim Unicorn,
ReplyDeleteYour comment on my blog got put into my spam folder, and I didn't see it until just now.
As usual among Muslims, your various words represented in your essays here reflect a veritable jungle of different points and sub-points which would easily arouse various degrees and forms and levels of problematic response from me, quickly devolving into more jungle of complexity, which can then be exploited for either clever obfuscation, or sincere confusion (either one unproductive).
I thus like to keep it to one point at a time (if I'm going to engage at all).
So, for now, I'd ask you:
Are you a "Koran-only" Muslim?
This question was occasioned by (among other things) your remarks, concerning the Bukhari hadith reporting that Mohammed said in no uncertain terms that 'Whoever changed his Deen [his Islamic religion], then kill him.'; upon which you wrote:
"This hadith is narrated in what is one of the most authoritative texts in all of Islam. I reject it..."
It's not clear if you reject the hadith as representative of Islam, or you reject a part of Islam as dependent upon the hadiths, or you reject Mohammed for reportedly saying that. But again, don't respond to this paragraph for now: Please simply answer the question I bolded above. Later, we can move to other steps. One step at a time.
Thanks.
Hesperado, thank you for taking the time to review and discuss the trouble with Islam here on my blog.
ReplyDeleteAs to your query, I am not a Qur'an alone Muslim. There are many aspects to our oral tradition which I adhere to, and I tend to believe that a solid majority of the reports contain excellent truths of genuine benefit to Muslims. The best example of this would be instructions on how to perform salat. Muslims tend to view the dynamic between Qur'an and hadith as being the former tells you what to do and the latter instructs you on how to do it. However, as I am not a fundamentalist, I tend to question the veracity of some Islamic texts.
A case for reasonable doubt exists for both the Qur'an itself and for various hadith collections. An excellent example is this sahih hadith found in both Muslim and Tirmidi:
"Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Apostle forbade the wearing of gold signet rings."
http://islam.us/hadith/muslim/024.smt.html
Sounds pretty authoritative, and there's a few others that state that silver rings were reportedly worn by Muhammad. Guess who the chain of transmission began with? A silversmith. This trend continues with other maxims about not wearing saffron/yellow garments and not wearing silk and why magical amulets are good for you etc etc.
There's a case for (more than) reasonable doubt among the hadith collections, and so I reject those which tend to have extremely suspect origins. Call me a cafeteria Muslim if it sounds apt, but I do feel that questioning the material is necessary. However, this does not mean that I offhand also reject particularly offensive or "challenging" reports.
I'll be happy to go more indepth into hadith collections if you like, feel free to ask more questions.
Also, I feel I may have said too much, thus violating the spirit of your request. I read it as my interpretation of THAT hadith, but upon re-reading your statements I think I should amend the above. So...
ReplyDelete"No, I am not a Qur'an alone Muslim".
Thanks for your answer.
ReplyDeleteMy follow-up questions are:
1) When you say you reject the apostasy hadith you cited, do you mean you reject its veracity as reporting what Mohammed said?
2) If the answer to #1 is "yes", the second question is: On what basis do you reject the veracity of that apostasy hadith -- the one that reports that Mohammed said "Baddala deenahu, faqtuluhu" (translated as "...if anyone changes his Islam, kill him.”) ?
(Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57)
3) If the answer to #1 is "no", then please explain what exactly you are rejecting.
Thanks.
Sorry for the delay in response today, but I've been away much of the day visiting with relatives and trying to achieve some semblance of somnolence post moving.
ReplyDelete1.) I have no evidence that this particular hadith is in error, so I accept it as being genuine. I'd certainly love to be able to prove that it's false, but there's no case for reasonable doubt for this particularly vile report.
2.) I reject violence and atrocity in the name of God. Just because it was right in the Dark Ages or the Middle Ages does not make it applicable today. Muhammad saw himself as being part of a great tradition of prophets, and a portion of that lineage certainly carried out a death penalty for apostates. It is understandable, perhaps, to believe that a divinely guided prophet was given special license by God to carry out such acts at specific times and places. My personal opinion on the matter falls within this domain in addition to my rather obvious objection as a pacifist.
Muhammad was decidedly not a pacifist. There are definitely times when I think pacifism is wrong, it's just right for me. For example, how does one deal with Hitler? Not with pacifism, I assure you. I don't advocate it for all of humanity unless all of humanity is willing to forgo predation.
Muslim Unicorn,
ReplyDeleteYour answer to my question suggests that you think Mohammed was wrong about that command he gave; and you base your repudiation of Mohammed's command on your own personal ethics which apparently contradict Mohammed's ethics.
My follow-up question would be:
Can you show me
one Islamic school (needless to say, Ahmadi and Bahai don't count),
one Islamic fiqh,
one Islamic ulama,
one Islamic cleric,
one Islamic scholar,
one Muslim who claims to represent Islam anywhere in the world today
-- who agrees with you about repudiating Mohammed -- not just about that particular hadith, but about any hadith of Mohammed's prescriptions or proscriptions about any subject (a hadith which, of course, they deem to be authentic)?
P.S.: Sorry, I forgot to add, when I say "any Islamic" etc. -- I am excluding the "Koran-only" Muslims who repudiate all of the hadiths (and hence the Sunna) anyway (and who, as such, are as marginal as the Ahmadi and Bahai).
ReplyDeleteFrom a theological standpoint, it is difficult to disobey Muhammad. The Qur'an offers 20 or so ayat which say some variation of obeying Muhammad and Allah or Allah and his messengers is good for you. For example:
ReplyDelete"The Messenger (Muhammad SAW) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)." Qur'an 2:285
Most traditional scholars of the past as well as many modern scholars (Yusuf al-Qaradawi, I'm looking at you) view apostasy as being a crime punishable by death. Most of the modern pro-savagery scholars claim that there is ijma (universal consensus) on this matter. However, there has very rarely ever been ijma among Muslims in our past. This is often a result of conflicting reports. Consider this hadith detailed in al-Bukhari, where Muhammad himself does not kill a man for leaving the religion:
"A bedouin gave the Pledge of allegiance to Allah's Apostle for Islam. Then the bedouin got fever at Medina, came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge," But Allah's Apostle refused. Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused Then he came to him (again) and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Cancel my Pledge." But the Prophet refused. The bedouin finally went out (of Medina) whereupon Allah's Apostle said, "Medina is like a pair of bellows (furnace): It expels its impurities and brightens and clears its good." Sahih al Bukhari, Vol. 9 #318
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/089.sbt.html
Loyalty to Muhammad and loyalty to Allah are wrapped up as being a single entity in the Qur'an, yet Muhammad allowed this man to live. Some jurists view this as being an example of a case where the apostate was not also treasonous and thus allowed to live. As a pacifist, I am against a death penalty for all crimes, even betrayal to the Islamic state. Since I also disavow an Islamic state, I'd be something of a hypocrite if I supported such a penalty. Of course, "high treason" is punishable by death in most modern states.
Muhammad may very well have been divinely guided with foresight and knowledge about the loyalty of such men. I don't consider it ethical for Muslims to follow this example, largely because we are unable to decide on such loyalty ourselves.
My opinion on this matter is not alone, and you have asked me to produce scholars who agree with me on repudiating the interpretation of that particular hadith. I'll give you quite a few, some old, some new.
Mohammad Hashim Kamali, Professor of Law at the International Islamic University of Malaysia teaches shari'a and fiqh. He has written an entire book on the subject, Freedom of Expression, which has a chapter concerning apostasy that I can make available to you for download.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0946621608/qid=1101940825/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-0499216-1752749?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
In it, he claims that very important early Islamic figures such as Ibrahim al-Nakha'i, Abu al-Walid al-Baji and Sufyan al-Thawri rejected a death penalty for apostasy. This is rather important, as it suggests that there has never actually been a consensus among the Muslims as to a death penalty. Effectively, they all argue that Muhammad only granted a death penalty for those who were unable to be reasoned with (interpret THAT as you will), treasonous, or otherwise unable to be brought back into the fold at some point in the future.
Supposedly, Tariq Ramadan has rejected a death penalty among Muslims. I'm not a fan, and I have many misgivings. It was apparently once on his site, but now is linked to in various other blogs and social media. Here's a site which claims to give his original interview (may be dubious)
http://www.islamophobia.org/news.php?readmore=378
Q What about apostasy? What happens if you are born and educated a Muslim but then say: I have now decided that Islam is not for me. Would you accept that someone born into a Muslim family has a right to say that they no longer believe, and that families and communities must respect that?
A I have been criticised about this in many countries. My view is the same as that of Sufyan Al-Thawri, an 8th-century scholar of Islam, who argued that the Koran does not prescribe death for someone because he or she is changing religion. Neither did the Prophet himself ever perform such an act. Many around the Prophet changed religions. But he never did anything against them. There was an early Muslim, Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh, who went with the first emigrants from Mecca to Abyssinia. He converted to Christianity and stayed, but remained close to Muslims. He divorced his wife, but he was not killed.
It is different for someone who becomes a Muslim during a war with the purpose of betraying Muslims. They are committing treason. This is why the context is so important because the Prophet never killed anyone because he changed religion. From the very beginning, Muslim scholars understood this. Islam does not prevent someone from changing religion because you feel that this is not right for you, or if you are not happy. There are two records of the Prophet saying that someone changing religion should be killed. But both sources are weak. The most explicit one-"He who changes his religion, kill him"-was not accepted as being authentic by Imam Muslim, [one of the top six biographers of the life of the Prophet].
Ramadan suggests that the hadith is da'eef (weak). I don't see any evidence for that claim. The other points of his post mirror the above mentioned disagreement with the interpretation of the hadith.
Of course, other big modern voices are also not without their controversy. Louay Safi and Ingrid Mattson have both repudiated a death penalty for apsotasy. Feisal Abdul Rauf of Park 51 masjid fame also did so in his book "What's Right With Islam is What's Right With America".
ReplyDeleteRegardless of our opinions about these figures and the organizations they represent, they have openly stated that they are against a death penalty for apostasy.
There are other various Muslim professors who have openly stated that they repudiate a death penalty for apostasy. I can link more if you deem it necessary. The overarching point though should not be that some Muslims reject this stance or even that there is preference of opinion among the Muslims. What should be focused on is that MILLIONS of Muslims believe that people should be killed for leaving the faith. That's a huge problem, and should be addressed in an open and frank manner.
And sorry for the very long post, I wanted to give you as much reference material as possible to exhibit that it's not just one person. I understand that you asked for one, and I hope the answer does not appear to be too long or convoluted.
ReplyDeleteMuslim Unicorn,
ReplyDeleteJust to recap:
In answer to my question, you were unable to cite any Islamic school, fiqh or ulama who repudiates any command of Mohammed as you do.
You did cite a total of 5 Muslims who you claim repudiated the apostasy hadith -- but you did not maintain utmost clarity about distinguishing two different things which were clear in my question:
a) rejecting Mohammed himself for uttering that command you deem as authentically reported by the hadith
b) rejecting the hadith as "inauthentic" and therefore as inaccurately reporting what Mohammed said. (This is a way of doing an "end run" around the problem -- "Mohammed never said it!" therefore: no problem!)
I need to see proof that any of the 5 Muslims you cited actually repudiate Mohammed himself for saying what he said -- after they are satisfied that what he said was authentically reported by some hadith.
Now, I'm not sure how a person can continue to admire Mohammed after they know he commanded killing people who leave Islam ("nobody's perfect!" worked for the transvestite Jack Lemmon at the end of the movie Some Like It Hot; but a winsome character in a movie is different from a Prophet of God to be emulated as a model of conduct for all times, one would reasonably think -- most especially, for God's sake, when he's uttering commands he says are from God Himself!).
But, at any rate, that's a separate question. Remember my ground rules: one point at a time.
Hesperado, I do see what you're saying and where I was in error. In my examples provided, they merely argued that Muhammad was perhaps misinterpreted and he allowed a death penalty for treason instead of apostasy. My own take is that Muhammad said it, but was in error for saying it and thus was a fallible man.
ReplyDeleteOn this opinion, I may very well be alone outside of the "fringe" elements you had previously listed. Please allow me some time to research it to see if I can find anyone else of import who feels as I do?
And thanks for your continued interest in this exercise. I feel as if I am learning a great deal for being challenged in this matter. Yours is a critical voice worth listening to, even if I don't necessarily like the revelations.